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12-08-2007, 12:48 PM kasualkafe_com Joined on 12-08-2007 Posts 6 Can a Ayn Randian Government truly work ? I have read Atlas Shrugged , and many many articles on Objectivism. I am intrigued by it as many of you are on this forum. I believe its attraction is its simplicity , and ease of breaking down many various views on life to it primary precepts. My own personal philosophy is all over the place. Prior to reading Atlas , I would have considered myself as leaning a bit left politically in some areas. But not so far as agreeing with the socialist policiest that todays societies seem to lean. I am absolutely capitalist. . It was easy for me to grasp the ethical concept of rational self-interest as I have always felt that in some way , Man is lifes Highest cause and Good. I just never knew how to express it ... now I do. I consider myself agnostic , and still do despite Ayn rand`s opinion that you are either atheist or you are not It was easy for me to agree with her concepts that mysticism clouds rational judgement and knowledge cannot be obtained from it. You may not tell from what I have just written how much I do grasp of objectivism , but fear not . I get it and for the most part agree with it. I state this because I have some questions on what an absolute Ayn Randian government would translate to over time. Primarily , the absolute faith in Laissez Fair Captalism. According to Rand`s ideal political system .. Governments sole purpose is to protect the individual rights of its governed with no other allowances of power or scope. She deftly describes in her book , traders who flourish in this environment , dealing with eachother with rational self-interest and mutually benefitting from the agreements made therein. But isn`t this a bit simplistic , todays world economy is not affected by these small dealings so the scale must be enlarged to fit with todays economics. We have Large corporations trading with large corporations producing goods for the people. We also have minimum wage laws , unions , regulations and so forth to protect the workers and protect the consumers. In AR`s political world , all the checks and balances on business would be abolished (and to a certain extent , I agree , I have read some of her persuasive arguments against some of the mixed economy institutions we live with currently) I am just no sold completely. Continuing along AR`s political world , the publicly owned assets would also be privatized. Water , roads , parks , libraries etc; would all be on the market , and market forces would dictate their worth and cost. I have read her argument that profit for one does not mean it comes from another. Wealth and success are not zero-sum. But I question that ; What would it be like if a few corporations owned Water , all of it. Like oil now , the price of water would fluctuate according to supply and demand , drought , consumption etc; I believe , even in this current mixed economy with its protections we as consumers are gouged on a daily basis by oil companies. Now imagine that with water , that a few companies own an item that we depend on for survival. O.k next item .... minimum wage , workers safety , unionizing ...etc; We can agree that corporations would benefit financially without these in place. Rand says that the poor will benefit from the rich , that anothers success will in no way take from the poor. (adam smithian views) But if corporations were able to drive down salary , eliminate costly safety regualtions , elimate benefts etc ; that would not only drive down the minimum wage worker , but the middle class white collar workers salaries etc; IT is in this way , the trickled down theory is not practicable. I cannot believe the average worker would be better off or have a better standard of living than we do now. Yes , I grant that prices on goods would drop in the above scenario making them less expensive and that the higher wages that our current system demands actually creates an artifical inflationary standard. But ... trickle down hints at a speed of which this occurs. S l o w l y ... Finally the environmental aspect. Ayn rand has a strong opinion on this as well that I question when taken to its absolute end. What will our world look like with no checks on corporate use of land. Noxious gasses , dumping , deforestation , elimination of protected national parks etc; I believe following this political philosophy to its absolute end would eventually look like facism and communism. The initiator of force may have a different face and maybe even a different weapon , but it will arise nonetheless. At this stage , I am rambling and may not even explained myself very well ... but ultimately my simple question is ....what would absolute laissez faire capitalism look like in 30 years... what do you think Kevin@kasualkafe.com    Report

12-08-2007, 1:35 PM NickOtani Joined on 04-21-2006 Posts 323 Re: Can a Ayn Randian Government truly work ? Although Ayn Rand denounced the Libertarians because of their anarchist’s faction, there are still many Objectivists in this party. Objectivism is an influence in this party. John Hospers, a former friend of Rand’s, was one of its first Presidential candidates. It has been alleged that the party platform is a plagerization of Objectivism, and this 3rd party does have an influence on the mainstream parties, the Republicans and Democrats. As a third party, they can advocate certain views that are more extreme than those with which the mainstream parties want to be associated. However, as they gain support, some of those extreme views can become mainstream and be adopted by the mainstream parties. At one time, people would have thought Reagan’s views were extreme, but they became popular enough to get him elected. Yes, we have public roads and facilities, and it is hard to imagine how we would do without this. However, it was once hard to imagine civilization without slavery. We don’t have an ideal situation, but a focus on an ideal is not a bad thing. We recognize that taxation is a slight violation of individual rights, and we discuss and debate it very seriously. We don’t violate people’s rights easily. We do have a general free market economy, even in the world. People who develop a better mousetrap can generally profit from supply and demand. Things do get complicated when it comes to health care and environmental concerns. And, there is a concern that if government doesn’t control us, perhaps a huge business may control us. It’s all part of the never-ending fire that keeps on burning. Capitalism can be argued for with some success, but it is not conclusive. There are still some points on the other side, like how it can lead to alienation and subjugation to capital, something non-human. Anyone who has done menial labor in a factory knows what it is like to feel like just part of a machine. However, too much socialism is also bad, as evidenced by the fall of Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union. The pendulum keeps swinging. I too am rambling now. Oh well. In my discussions of Objectivism, these days, I tend to focus on the theory of knowledge and shy away from economics and politics. Bis bald, Nick    Report

12-08-2007, 2:20 PM kasualkafe_com Joined on 12-08-2007 Posts 6 Re: Can a Ayn Randian Government truly work ? Nick Thanks for your quick and on-the-mark reply. I was hoping you would as I`ve read a number of your posts and respect your viewpoint. You are obviously very knowledgeable , have a good grasp on objectivism , and now i see , apparently have your own viewpoint as well ....Ayn Rand tended to be "all or nothing" regarding her philosophy ...if it didn`t fit with her premises , it was wrong , or the espouser was misinformed, or it was even evil. I was actually expecting someone to take a hard stance against what I wrote. Its good to know , A- that you understood what I was getting at despite my poor prose. B- that you also understand my mental dillemma in taking Ayn Rand to its absolute. I believe there aresome middle roads that can be taken and that there will be an eternal struggle to perfect society. Like you aptly put "the pendulum still swings" I consider myself a moderate , who struggles mightily and changes mind often. If I was a politician - I would be attacked as a flip-flopper - Luckily I`m just a citizen of this society that has the right to pursue knowledge and happiness and success at his own pace and ability. This is a wonderful country that allows us to do that. This being said , my next question was going to be , how do we come close to the Free trade - free minds society that Ayn Rand idealized? Myprevios post was meant to question An ABSOLUTE Laissez faire government and economy but that didn`t mean I don`t agree with her concepts. Nick seems to agree with my thinking that it would be very difficult to reach that IDEAL absolute but it doesn`t mean we can`t envision it and strive for it. (taking liberties on Nicks thoughts ...sorry - hope i`m accurate) There is so much apparent truth in what she says and I believe there are ways to achieve some aspect ... I have read her opinions somewhere on social security ; she would`ve voted to privatize it and offer younger workers an opt-out of the social security "investment" scheme. She agreed that the process of eliminating the "unethical institutions" that We as a people unfortunately have come to rely on would be painful but best for us in the long run. I actually wrote an article on my website against such a vote but have since wavered from my stand. My fear is voting for politicians that have this same platform also means voting in their other platforms which I don`t always agree with. Especially since todays republicans seem to be religious and social conservatives , which I believe all here disagree with. (again taking liberties) Right now , there are moderate republicans feigning piety to become more attractive to its base. agghhh!!!! By the way , I dislike Bush for a thousand reasons that I won`t bother with here , especially since this isn`t necessarily a political site...its just the mode I am in at the moment. Anyway , how , in todays politcal environment , with its 2 party domination , can one initiate such reform? I wrote an article on my website arguing that a vote for 3rd party was a wasted vote. I agreed that additional parties were important to exist - they do influence the 2 main parties and have helped shift policy , but actually voting for them was a waste. O.k - I`m done for now - Nick , I will topicalize something more in your realm of focus in the future because I do have something to add to that "jesus" thread that I was reading. Respectfully yours , Kevin@kasualkafe.com    Report

12-08-2007, 8:06 PM NickOtani Joined on 04-21-2006 Posts 323 Re: Can a Ayn Randian Government truly work ? This being said , my next question was going to be , how do we come close to the Free trade - free minds society that Ayn <BLOCKQUOTE><table width="85%"><tr><td class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4">Rand idealized? Myprevios post was meant to question An ABSOLUTE Laissez faire government and economy but that didn`t mean I don`t agree with her concepts. Nick seems to agree with my thinking that it would be very difficult to reach that IDEAL absolute but it doesn`t mean we can`t envision it and strive for it. (taking liberties on Nicks thoughts ...sorry - hope i`m accurate)</td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, that's the right interpretation. It is good to know the ideal and strive for it even if it seems unrealistic at the moment. The capitalistic model works well when everybody has property and value is exchanged for value, but it gets complicated when rivers run through properties or when some individuals are irrational and hord vital goods. It's also kind'a hard for an Objectivist to explain how to set up a perfect capitalism from scratch, as when a plane crashes on a deserted island and survivors have to create a society. What happens when one person claims the only fresh water source? We should read Marx also, so as not to have the kind of alienation he was talking about. However, I do think rational egoism is defensible and in line with natural rights. Rand's capitalism is the way to have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, as discussed in the Declaration of Independence. It's a good ideal for which we can strive. bis bald, Nick    Report

01-09-2008, 5:16 PM FOUNDATION Joined on 01-10-2008 Posts 2 Re: Can a Ayn Randian Government truly work ? Yes, an AR govenment can work. We just need to design it. Based on the elimination of  "Force and Fraud" - monopolistic practices fall under these controls. Therefore let's say that a company wishes wishes to own and control water in an area. The government then says that - okay you can but you are not allowed to gouge prices with your exclusive rigts to sell in that area. Thus making the government use Force/police/courts on people to pay outrageous prices. The books would have to be open to inspection by the government licensing agency for revue to see if price gouging is going on. What about free market? Well, if another person/company wishes to buy a critical commodity service then they can simply buy the stocks in that company to control/own it. Prices on a critical commodity can go up depending on market adjusted inflation formulas. Profits can go up with new methods of operation and technology to retain the "final price" to the consumer but lower internal costs of operation. A critical commodity is one that is a necessity for an individuals existance and methods of control can be ennacted to prevent misuse.          Report

01-09-2008, 5:41 PM FOUNDATION Joined on 01-10-2008 Posts 2 Re: Can a Ayn Randian Government truly work ? Thank you for the opportunity to sharpen my wits on this subject. Referring to a section about public utilities. I'm hoping that with other people on this "board" that we can thrash together a working mechanism of government. I have now defined "critical supplied resources" as those that are a necessity to a persons existance. That what limitations a government should have, should include this concept in its' constructive development. Food, water, air, fuel, may be regulated. Let the discussions evolve now.      Report

01-10-2008, 12:28 PM marantaz Joined on 01-10-2008 Posts 19 Re: Can a Ayn Randian Government truly work ? Very well, Foundation, I'll try.  I think you provided a starting point for what the government may regulate, but to what extent would such regulations be permitted?  Food and water would have to be safe for consumption, necessitating the governments monitoring and enforcing quality.  By air, I assume you are speaking of the impact of production on the air quality?  Would such regulations pertain only to known dangers, such as cancer causing agents, or would offensive odors, such as sewage plants create, require government regulation of plant location, emiissions, etc.?  As to fuel, are we speaking energy, or natural fuels, and if so, which fuel?  Wood burning stoves and fireplaces, oil, coal?  To what extent will government be permitted to impose costs on businesses, if one fuel is more polluting than another; wouldn't we be in danger of permitting the government to regulate one or another out of the market?  I also believe Rand's ideal would work, it's just never been tried; the founding fathers set some of the concepts in place, but over time it has become corrupted by those Rand recognized as the enemies of capitalism and freedom.  Limiting the governments ability to influence business and the daily lives of the average citizen is the first and most difficult step in achieving the ideal.     Report

01-30-2008, 4:03 PM kasualkafe_com Joined on 12-08-2007 Posts 6 Re: Can a Ayn Randian Government truly work ? Well , I think we have already begun to veer from Ayn Rand`s idea of free market. She is absolutley opposed to government involvement in the market. She specifically analogizes in her books this same monopoly issue and satirizes her view of "antitrust laws" Her opinion is that "coercive monopolies" do not exist without govenment invention. The only coercive monopolies that Do Exist are ones created by government intervention (regardless of good intentions) Their a variety of "attacks" against capitalism , and a variety of opinions about the necessity of regulation. Her response when not specifically countering a claim for regulation, is that she would rather have the mistakes of the free market reign than the mistakes of social , collective , for the good of the people , government. Nick , would you agree that the above is relatively close to Ms. Rand`s view. P.S - I didn`t specifically state this in my previous posts - but this is one of the exact reasons I posed the question named in this subject.    Report

01-31-2008, 12:47 AM NickOtani Joined on 04-21-2006 Posts 323 Re: Can a Ayn Randian Government truly work ? "Nick , would you agree that the above is relatively close to Ms. Rand`s view." Yes, I think the above is close to Rand's view. She did think government should be the source of retalitory force to punish those who violate rights but not interfer in the free-market. She compared the federal reserve system to the penny in the fuse box which burned the house down and plunged our nation into the depression. Otherwise, she though it would have been a recession which we could pull out of as soon as the economy got better by itself. She thought anti-trust laws were punishing industries for being successful, anticipating that they would not work out like they did in Atlas Shrugged. She was not entirely an anarchist. she thought government needed to protect property rights. However, like I said in my first post, there are some problems she didn't address, like how to set up a fair capitalistic system from scratch or how to determine who controls water from a river flowing through two or more properties or how to deal with someone who is irrational and chooses to horde vital goods etc. I just don't think the answers are that easy. We're still working on them. bis bald, Nick    Report

05-06-2008, 7:31 PM solo Joined on 08-08-2007 Posts 16 Re: Can a Ayn Randian Government truly work ? kasualkafe, All of the problems you have listed in your first post may be resolved through the proper application of the principles of individual rights. The application is not always straighforward and may require considerable thought, but it is always possible. The reason for this is that these principles are derived from the fundamental nature of man and existence holding life as the standard of value and thus excludes all catagories of the anti-life The problem here is similar to knowing that F=ma. This principle describes the motions of all macroscopic bodies moving at non-relativistic speeds. However, being able to solve any of the problems of classical mechanics by applying it may not always be easily done, but it can be done. Considering those you have raised here: 1)"what would it be like if a few corporations owned water, all of it." This would be impossible. Water falls from the sky in the form of rain. How could they collect it all? Water can be extracted from the oceans. How could a corporation acquire exclusive rights to them? Water is contain in food. How could they gain control over it? Further, the cornering of markets has been attempted before and it has never proved possible. The reason for this is that as a commodity is purchased, the remaining supply is diminished and thus increases in value, and thus becomes progressively more expensive. A point is reached where further accumulation is not possible. 2)"next item . . . minimum wage, workers safety, unionizing . . . etc. we can agree that corporations would benefit financially without these in place." That is a point that is not obvious, however it does not need to be taken up. Labor unions are voluntary organizations and thus allowed under the principles of individual rights. The enhanced bargaining power provided by the unions will ensure a fairness to the workers, and this will include all aspects of their jobs, ie. safety, wages, pensions, etc., and this must be true since their power to strike can completely arrest the operation of any corporation. 3)"Finally, the environmental aspect . . . What will our world look like with no checks on corporate use of land, noxious gasses, dumping, deforestation, elimination of protected national parks etc,." First, the release gasses, or any environmental pollutants, which adversely affect people is an act of aggression and disallowed under the principle of individual rights. The government can legitimately restrict this action. And realize that this is not economic regulation. Second, a corporation may dump on land which it owns, or any other land provided it has the owner's consent. This reduces the property value of the land and this reduction in value will represent part of the cost of disposal. The corporation seeking to maximize its profits will take this into account and try to minimize the devaluation. Further, waste will be generated by production so its disposal in an unavoidable problem. Now, do you think that a corporation bound by the condition of profitability can do this more efficiently than the government, which is not bound by such condition? Third, as corporations deforest land, or use any commodity, it depletes the supply, and as this occurs the remainder increases in value. Thus, the cost of using it goes up as it is depleted. The corporation being bound by the requirement of profitibility will thus restrict its use of any commodity as it is depleted and thus there is a limit of use beyond which no corporation can go. There are many, many examples that can be raised which challenge the viability of a fully laissez faire system, and they may all be resolved through the proper application of individual rights. If you think you've found one which can not be resolved, then put down on this site and I will show you how it can be done. The problem you have is common to all free-market newbies, as it was to me long ago. You just need time to learn how to apply the principles.    Report

08-03-2008, 5:45 PM R_Crusoe Joined on 08-04-2008 Posts 7 Re: Can a Ayn Randian Government truly work ? I, like Kevin, discovered rational egoism relatively recently. When I say "discovered" I mean that I learned that there is a school of thought and philosophy that gives expression to much of what I fundamentally held to be true. As I wrestle to change many of my old assumptions, I too have questions about a truly objectivist government. According to Ayn Rand's objectivist philosophy; a government should only provide a few civil services: police, courts, an army. How would the selection and appointment of these servants adhere to objectivism and how could those servants reach fulfillment and happiness according to the objectivist ideal, when they exist to serve others, not themselves? Or does an absolutely objectivist society assume unhappiness for a certain segment of the population? I do not think this is the case; but if it isn't then a government regulated civil service must be conformed to objectivist philosophy. It is with this question that I find myself currently wrestling. -Crusoe -EDIT- removed unecessary html    Report

08-03-2008, 6:19 PM R_Crusoe Joined on 08-04-2008 Posts 7 Re: Can a Ayn Randian Government truly work ? Furthermore, how would this government maintain these, however limited, civil instituitions without the power to leverage taxes? -Crusoe    Report

08-04-2008, 12:28 AM Donovan A. Joined on 07-23-2008 Dallas, TX Posts 6 Re: Can a Ayn Randian Government truly work ? Ayn Rand gave examples in The Virtue of Selfishness on how this can be done. Government can insure contracts, charging a voluntary free. A lottery is acceptable. Voluntary donation is acceptable. People who recognize the value of government protection and law should be willing to pay for it. It's true that some will not pay but will incur the benefits, but that does not mean that everyone will expect someone else to pay and therefore nobody will. For instance, it is logical to have auto-insurance to protect you in case someone else is not insured. "Reason is man's means of survival. Master the art of reasoning and you can gain independence. Through independence you can gain self-esteem. Through self-esteem you can achieve great happiness." - Donovan.A    Report

08-04-2008, 7:17 PM R_Crusoe Joined on 08-04-2008 Posts 7 Re: Can a Ayn Randian Government truly work ? This answers my question about how to pay for the army; but how does one in the army live according to rational egoism? How does one mix military hierarchy and dogma with objectivism? It sems to me a truly objectivist society wouldn't require a massive military as it wouldn't engage in warfare except for self-defense; and in those cases volunteers shouldn't be hard to find. But there is still a need for those who are willing to lay down their lives at a moment's notice; to risk everything without all the information. How is this "sacrifice" justifiable in an objectivist worldview? There may be a military model where every soldier has the right to consider every order according to his or her own personal beliefs and desires; but I am not sure how efficient and effective this force would be. In my mind, a truly effective army requires an oath to risk everything based on the trust the army would not require it of you unless it was the only way to defend the nation you were sworn to protect. In an objectivist society, this sacrifice could not be demanded or required as "for the public good." The soldiers would need just compensation for their work, talents, and risks. Which begs the question; how much is a fair trade for human life? What rate could I demand in a laissez faire economy for risking my life? Would lotteries and donations support such an army?    Report

08-05-2008, 11:34 PM R_Crusoe Joined on 08-04-2008 Posts 7 Re: Can a Ayn Randian Government truly work ? I sense that the answer I seek is within the character Dagnar; the man who risked his life to secure the wealth of his fellow strikers. I am going to re-read the passages of Atlas that deal with the pirate; any recommendations or thoughts?    Report

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